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Author	Message / Information
_Daya_	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 1:17:16 AM hehehehe leave it to my DS to hit it on the head for I do know any that went to a online hoe house in Gor about 6 months ago did lol there was a very ask for slave that was a male in drag for He is bi grins so all You Masters may need to think if You ever went to an on line whore house .
Niobe This message was updated on 11/3/2003 2:48:18 PM by Niobe	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 2:46:33 PM ~reads all the responses to this thread, and reads them again, takes a few moments to collect my thoughts before continuing....deep breath...here goes~ Ok. What started out as a person (me) posting about a moral dilemna she was having regarding a known deception that she'd been indirectly party to for near a year, and the possibility of there being another one. I cannot condemn one, and condone the other, no matter the reasons. I have read all of the responses, and now feel it's time to clarify a few things. My post was not in any way, shape, form, or fashion, about sexual preferences or persecution for the life one person decides to lead with another. I DO NOT JUDGE SOMEONE FOR THEIR REAL LIFE CHOICES. I never have. I don't intend to start now. After having given ample time for the woman to step up, admit that it IS a woman in a male role, and go on with her life in gor with a little more dignity and a lot less headache and fear, I said that if they didn't, then I would. So...... Beast and angel have been two people very dear to me, and it sickens me that some are jumping the gun and assuming that they are being shunned for their sexual orientation. That is patently not true. No where in my post did I EVER say or imply that I have issues with their relationship or how they live their lives. I don't even have a problem with Beast being a woman in the role of a man. That being said, my post was about being *honest. There should be no shame in their relationship, no reason to hide. Fact: NO ONE HAS ASKED BEAST TO LEAVE GOR* Fact: NO ONE HAS DRIVEN EITHER BEAST OR ANGEL OUT OF GOR Fact: NO ONE ON THIS THREAD HAS PERSECUTED EITHER BEAST OR ANGEL FOR BEING TOGETHER NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES Their choices are their own to make regarding both their roleplay and their real lives. It was a choice Beast made to keep a secret regarding the fact that the character of Beast, Gorean Man, was being roleplayed by a woman. It was a choice to ask others to keep that secret for them. It was my choice to post about it on the boards. My reasons I have already stated and feel no need to repeat them. Now I'm going to say this. For Beast to lay all the blame on my shoulders, make the accusation that I am "ruining them both in gor" and "driving them out of the gor they love" is plain out ludicrous. I will not accept the blame for them leaving, IF they leave, or change names, as Beast told me they would "have" to do, well then that also is *THEIR* decision. They don't, but obviously they feel like they can't be open about themselves, ok so be it. Lie and deceive again about who you really are. You just don't get it. The people who love you, will still be there, all the contributions you've made for the betterment of gor still exist, you might just find that most simply do not care one way or another if you are a woman or sleen or man. But you won't know until you are honest about it. I wish you and everyone else, well, always. Niobe (as per the original post, was sold, and subsequently released) Honour cannot be roleplayed, nor pretended...you either have it as a person, or you don't. -- DRH, 2003
B.r.a.t..	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 3:07:55 PM Thomas Jefferson once said ......."There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world.".......Make alot of sense to me coming from an older and another generation.
Gothkiel	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 3:11:09 PM Now Beast and his slave is not someone I interracted with, and with recent events I probably wouldn't. However there is a bigger picture here, being accountable for your actions. Sure, it is easier to run, start new names, and act like it was all a bad dream that will be gone. Wrong. If these people that did decieve people and a community,don't take responsibility for their OWN actions, then I can see most people in Gor staying to themselves, eyeing each new person that shows up in Gor wondering if thats "her." If you are willing to deceieve then you should also be willing to face the music when the band plays. The consequences of these actions on the community will basically kill trust and many oppurtunities for roleplay and growth. I urge you, and anyone that have been decieving ones they say they care for and a community they say they love...... do the right thing so the community as a whole, and yourself, can heal and take responsibility for what you have done. I wish you well on your choices.
Cardinal	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 3:21:29 PM Gothkiel (hopes i spelled the name right) Beast and angel have not decieved anyone.. many in Gor new the truth behind them and they didnt hide it..never once did they lie to anyone about it.. and never once have they HURT anyone or decieved anyone... as for Niobe making the post... she is the one that decieved Beast and angel.. as friends..and a trusted person.. she betrayed them.. with malice and forthought...Beast didnt come into the Gor world as a Male to try to decieve anyone.. "HE" had "HIS" own reasons for what "HE" did.. and that is not my place to plaster all over the boards.. but yes i know why.. as does many others.. including the one that made the original post.. i am not going to Bash you Niobe.. but i do hope that you know.. that by doing what you did.. you have hurt these people.. deeper than anything else could have.. you have shown them what trust consists of amongst "friends" and you have shown them why it is that OTHER people lie and keep secrets to themself.. Gothkiel..(again..hoping i spelled the name correct).. if Youwish to speak further on this subject.. feel free to contact me. stephe_69@hotmail.com i can answer a few questions for you..... all i can say for this whole situation.. Maybe You see that Beast and angel decieved people.. maybe not.. but inevitably.. in the end.. the truth still stands.. Beast did alot to Better Gor.. even BEFORE people knew that HE is a SHE.. and people looked up to HIM.. and now that someone plasters real time issues on the boards.. you all turn your backs to HIM.. over BS.. makes everyone see the truth in friends and comrads... Card'Sin ~~ Life is what You make of it.. either better what you dun like.. or stop your bitchin about what you have let it become~~
Sharif ibn Ramirez This message was updated on 11/3/2003 3:37:05 PM by Sharif ibn Ramirez	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 3:29:06 PM Card, I applaud you on your stand, but I do remember someone named Succubus standing and condemning the same behavior in old Gor. And her friend Grim was making the stand you are making. So please, do not hate me for reminding you of this, but think enough has been said on this matter. It is now in the hands of those personally involved to rectify the matter and the rest of Gor to stand back and let nature take its course. Sharif ibn Ramirez
-T.ain.ted-S.oul-	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 3:31:27 PM Comes to the boards and can not believe all she is reading, since when is what someones real life become such a big issue in role play? Is'nt roleplay just that a role they play, so what is the damn big deal if a master is a female if that person is playing their role to the fullest? I never thought I would see so many judge over someones Gender...And people wonder why gor is going to hell fast, n I maybe a mere FW as people say but least I am not judgemental ~walks off in disgust~
Cardinal	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 3:40:50 PM ~quirks a brow and flashes a sly grin~ Hate You Dear for re-hashing the past.. this was Years ago.. indeed.. and yes there is a thing called Growing up from time to time.. many have done things in the past.. that they regret..move on.. and get over.. but what gets to me the most on this whole thread.. is that i am the one that has sat and dealt with the tears.. i have sat and dealt with the words of how someone feels betreayed.. and when you are on the recieving end of the grief.. it tends to make you see things in a different lite.. ~shrugs~ ~~ Life is what You make of it.. either better what you dun like.. or stop your bitchin about what you have let it become~~
Ness_	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 3:45:28 PM Reads this board and is now totally sickened by a person that got it from one person, and desided to take it out on an innocent. And that is what it came right down too, like it or not. Beast has ALWAYS been up front, never hurt anyone, and it was said in past long ago, that if any came in here that as long as they did NOT place it on another, and lie to them it would not hurt anyone, and they should be able to role play here as much as we can. Beast and angel have always upheld that. They do not take other slaves or Free persons in an ways that would hurt them. as they are always with themselves ONLY. They have done nothing but give to this community. Show Me where they have once placed anything on any of You. They have lived by the rules placed and known to them, and most importantly, they would not hurt a person like that. Now what ever the christ happened to You Nio I am sorry, but You didnt have to throw them in the fold. They never hurt you, and if You had such a twist of holier then thou feeling it should have been done then NOT NOW cause you got hurt by one that did do WRONG. Not by another who dosnt hurt anybody on here. How sick of you. You knew all along they are not people like this or would never hurt people in this fashion you were hurt in, so why you would make them suffor is beyond Me. You only did it for You. Not for them. Go after the ones that really do hurt people in Gor, not ones just being people like any one else in here that have the same rights as we do to role play. THEY ARE NOT IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM . PLACING THIER WAY OF LIFE ON ANY OF YOU. and what sickens Me more is YOU KNEW THAT. Yes there is a difference, and we should not punish those that are NOT here doing anything wrong. They did not lie, they should not have to broadcast thier real time lives to anyone, unless you are going to be placed into thier lives. and none of you have to the point that any sexual or deciet of that nature was being done. They simply role played, and did a damn good job, and no one minded them, and many cared about them, and those that didnt know, did they hurt you? Or is it they just kept thier private life just that.PRIVATE. something we all speak of in here. But gosh forbid if someone different comes in not harming any, has to take the fall for those that do. Nio, You tried to force them, into telling them of things they have a right to keep to them as they are not hurting anyone. They are people just wanting to role play and keeping to thier life style, NOT imposing it on others, and has been like that since you have known them, but now that one may have ,I dont know cause I dont have proof in front of Me, but if they did I would spit on them, just because people like them and I will say you in this, cause you hurt people who have done NO harm in here, make innocent people hurt for NO REASON. All of you that do Know Beast and had known, tell me, did they ever place thier life style on You..NO, they only tried to be apart of Gor and be friends to you. and not do as this other did, But You had to trash them, and for what. they did nothing wrong. they kept thier place knowing what it means. They go through this enough in real, and they do not even in real place thier life style on others, other then to be themselves. So shoot them for being human . God Bless Amercia I must say. Disgusted
Sharif ibn Ramirez	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 3:46:13 PM am only saying you have done well grasshopper in your stand. You have proven to Gor you are one who stand by your friends through all situations. But in this instance with all the other accusations being thrown around, think is time you stepped back and let everyone involved do what they have to do. I for one am proud that you do make a stand such as this, and know you and I would stand by each other as we have many times, even though we have had differences. ~ hands Card a llarma lollipop ~ is time you let someone else do the fighting, you are gonna work yerself into a heart attack if ya do not rest once in a while. Sharif ibn Ramirez
Jannat	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 3:47:11 PM I have known Beast and angel close to 3 years...I have never known Him to be anything than what He is...He has never deceived anyone. He doesnt own but one and that is angel..They are lifetime partners. It isnt His fault that He wasnt born with the right appendages. He has gone out of His way to better Gor and live as close to the books as possible. He is and has always been a Male in My eyes..and NO matter what will remain My friend. Those He trusted with absolute clarity knew of Him and His misfortune to not be born with a ~dick~ swinging between His thighs. I sincerly hope that this will not kill all the good things within Him and angel..They have gone out of Their way to be true Gor. And They have succeeded where most have failed. He is one of The best Masters of this Planet. He has proven to All He knows His role. He has shamed MANY of the So-called Masters wannabes. He is without a doubt a true gorean MALE..in heart soul and mind even it the body says different. He trusted you niobe...and you betrayed HIM. He hasnt betrayed anyone. I hope that you can sleep better knowing you have just hurt and basically killed Him and angel. If They decide to leave Gor it is Their business. If They stay ..again is Their business. He has a lot to offer Gor. He knows His role..He portrays it to the very best of His ability. And does it better than Most. He and angel are and will be among My true Friends. I stand beside Him and His decisions. ~Let He without sin cast the first stone~ Maybe your backyard is dirty. But Beast and angels is squeaky clean. I support You Beast...in what You decide is best. always Your Friend Jannat
B.r.a.t..	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 3:53:53 PM sorry to say there back yard is NOT squeaky clean. No one has a clean back yard we all was born with sin ...*sighs.
-.Sativa.-	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 4:00:46 PM I would hope that Beast and angel will see past this betrayal of trust, and see the ones that care for them, and the Gor they love and have done so much to build, and hold their heads up and continue to come here, to continue to be what they are...Goreans The stupidity of men always invites the insolence of power. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~
Hassan This message was updated on 11/3/2003 4:11:47 PM by Hassan	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 4:02:12 PM Tal Goreans, I am watching this issue ramble on and on and it impresses in me that in all this flummox of accusations and appeals, we are forgetting the one issue that is the prevelent and the most important, and that is What is Gor? Gor to me is about a relationship in deep emotional foundation and sexuality, between a male and a female. I did not write the books, John Norman did. He did not leave room in them for the gray areas such as we are addressing now. But Gor is about a men and a women, the natural order. Not about a women deceptively acting to be what she is not, ie Noak. Nor is just about roleplay. This venue has little room for what I would call roleplay without it being an actual set and controlled scenerio. In which every person is aware of who is who before it even begins. This forum is a an assimilation of the planet Gor, Gor as John Norman wrote in the books. The scenerio's unfold daily in conversation, and relationships and trust. This is not about bashing anyone for their lifestyle. That like mine, is their own choice. Gor is above all about alternative lifestyle. But everything has it's place in the order of things. And somethings just do not fit into the mold of others. My soundest advice is to just walk away and go on with the life you lead. *Gor is harsh, Gor is cruel, but Gor is beautiful* Abu-l ibn Hassan High Pasha of The Kavar Tribe Oasis of the Two Scimitars Kasbah of the Morning Star "The desert is my mother, and my father." - Tribesman of Gor Kavars Supreme! Seif al Din - Tay Mullah quote: **Hassan's Disclaimer - People are not expected to read it. I do not come to kiss ass. My reputation stinks. Sometimes my attitude sucks. And yet, my messages seem to have an affect much of the time. So I cannot ask for a better trade. I do not even mind being wrong if I made you question your actions and beliefs. And I learn a thing or two about myself in the process.
Ven0m This message was updated on 11/3/2003 4:41:15 PM by Ven0m	A choice of evils..... replied on: 11/3/2003 4:15:16 PM And there is absolutely NOTHING "clean" about deceit. To those who are friends with theese people, I commend you for standing by your friends. I also commend Niobe for her actions by exposing this deceit to our community,she has stood knowing what flack would come to follow and what a burden she would have to carry, but in doing this she has stopped yet one more instance of lies ane deceit from effecting our online community any further. I dont personally know Beast or angel,I have spoken to Beast briefly maybe twice. In speaking to Beast only the limited ammount of times that i did,I was decieved in believing i was speaking with another Gorean man about Gorean related matters,deceipt is something i do not take lightly. It dosent matter to me what they do in their private lives,as they are entitled to that privilage. However I do not condone or accept the type of deceit that has transpired from a woman portraying the role of a man in Gorean roleplay. There is another ongoing question of deceit involving 2 totally different people,or should I say "characters", and the ironic thing about that different debate is, that one of those who is fighting so hard to defend Beast and angel of their actions in their own web of deceit is carrying a torch and a noose,joining the opposition on a very similar subject to this one. A double edge sword comes to my mind as well as the word hypocrisy.

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