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Graywulf
This message was updated on 11/3/2003 4:32:26 PM by Graywulf |
A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/3/2003 4:18:24 PM I dont see why all of this is a big deal if it wasnt hidden from everyone. Where is the deciet and lies in something that was already in the open from the start? Just because one person didnt know about it where the rest did doesnt give anyone the right to plaster it upon the boards and make mountians out of ant hills. I think its just some people trying to get their 5 minutes of fame on here. Beast check your mailbox in here |
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Cardinal
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/3/2003 6:03:26 PM Hey Sharif.. check ya chat area Mailbox... ~*~ Life is what You make of it.. either better what you dun like.. or stop your bitchin about what you have let it become~*~ |
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Widsith
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/3/2003 6:07:14 PM I do not welcome deceit. I do not feel that I play a role. I am who I am. I do not play a character in a game. I find it hard to understand those who are pure role-players, I will admit that. I am who I am. I have stayed constant in this river of change. I cannot agree with those who pretent to be a gender they are not and let Me think that they are Male/Female when they are Female/Male. It was suggested in M5 discussions that those who are desperate to 'Role Play' another gender should be given the opportunity to declare this in info. This would save blushes and the venom associated with a perception of betrayal. Indeed, a amnesty was suggested on the M5 board for those who are currently 'transgender' roleplayers. However, I think that deception is underhand. Dressing it up in any other way is heaping dishonour on deception. |
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Vivienne__
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/3/2003 7:38:14 PM Well said Hassan, I was not sure what note you ended on but Venom picked up the slack I was looking for. People say what is the big deal with the deceit? I say what is the big deal with the truth?? If your going to live your life online or offline you may as well own up to it and be accountable for it. No one is perfect nor does anyone expect perfection. Just a little common sense goes along way. |
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Llarik_Tagas
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/3/2003 8:16:33 PM Finally having made it through 5 pages of post, I think will add My thoughts to this. What I find interesting is that BEFORE this issue came up, I was considering a post as to why I thought VP-Gor was having a problem. The main problem here as I see it are those who see VP-Gor as a vast, rich, wonderous role-play world with a wealth of rules/ideas and roles. And, there are also those who see VP-Gor as a re-creation of the world they wish was, one that is wild and yet were nature has resulted in "Natural Order" were the Free Males generally have taken the genetic birthright that belongs to them and has not been subverted like on that slaveworld, Earth. The *PROBLEM* is that these are mutually exclusive ideas. How many times have we heard - either in conversation or on the boards - that slave 'x' is well trained and knows all the right words, but just does not have a slave-heart? How many Master's want such a slave? Do I want a slave that can serve tea perfectly, and knows a hundred different dances, yet in her heart wants to rule her Master? Or do I want a slave that may be new to her slavery, but in her heart of heart seeks to please her Master? If you are of the second stripe above, you desire the second slave for she will be pleasing. If you are of the first view of VP-Gor, it really doesn't make a difference. I enjoy role-play - when I have time for it - I actually had played D&D before "AD&D" came out[pre-1977] so am probably older and longer roleplayer than most. I also feel, I could 'roleplay' almost any role in Gor. Nonetheless, I do not, and I will not - Why? Because there is MORE here than "just roleplay". And I do not mean just the sexual use issues. I once told a panther friend, I could be her prisoner, never her slave. Is this because I do not feel I could "roleplay a panther slave? Certainly not! I am sure I could roleplay it, but I would not "feel" it in My heart. I like many here - Masters, FW, Panther, and slave - are here because they FEEL the part and/or as Widsith stated they ARE the "role" that they assume. It is more than "just an online role-player game". I do not see how these disparate views can be reconciled. A lot of the arguing that takes place here including the recent "kill" of Trade are a result of this dichotomy. The role-players feel 'it is just a game', the re-creators feel it is more than just a game. To the role-players its "well, get over it and roll up another character. To the re-creators, it's you just committed coldblooded murder of a friend/aquaintance. There is no simple bridge. I know that I do not want a male coming to My HS and attempting to deceive Me and Mine into believing that they are a female slave desiring training [this WAS done to My former FC in the past}. I will consider that dishonourable and shun them forever no matter how "well-done" the roleplay is. This does not give answers, but it does hopefully clarify the question. I hold no ill-will to Beast and to angel. They roleplayed their parts well from all I am told, and the link page is wonderful. But, it does make it difficult for those who were deceived for whatever the reason - esp. those who feel this is more than a game. Llarik_Tagas the long winded. |
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Bewlock
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/3/2003 10:01:49 PM Tal Widsith, Who could disagree with what you say - or with what M5 has suggested? I am sure no Gorean would object to a female playing the role of a male (or vice versa) if they declared it in their info - even if worded ambiguously. That, after all, is acceptable roleplay. The panthers have done it many times in the past to great effect (and with good r/p). The objection to gender-bending, as you know, is the deceit and the possible pain it could cause to others. It also flows on to those who take another gender for reasons other than deceit. Niobe's post concerning Master Beast is perhaps the best example. It now appears that Beast is a female. The big difference here (in my opinion) is that Beast never entered Gor with testicles and testosterone, he never arrived with a master plan for the "betterment" of lesser Goreans, and he never strutted his stuff or threatened people. He went quietly about the business of being a Master within his own Home Stone and never harmed anyone. Indeed, it could be said (and I think it already has) that the character of Beast achieved more in his gentle ways than any of us rough fellows achieved in ours. It's sad that the fallout of deceitful gender-bending touches those who never used it for deceit or for any other motive that could be considered dishonourable. I am told that Beast and his slave were quite open with their friends concerning gender status. Therein lies the difference and the grace. Could the same be said of others who change gender? And to those who point their fingers at Niobe and castigate her as a Judas, you could do no better that to re-read her initial post. This woman was clearly undergoing a crisis of conscience. How could she possibly condemn one gender-bender and then protect another, her friend? That in itself would create a conflict of mental and moral agony. What would you have done in Niobe's place? Chosen the easy path and become a hypocrite or taken the hard path and be true to yourself? I have digested a lot over the past few days and, humbly, found myself wanting. Maybe we all have Bewlock |
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Tek.
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/3/2003 10:48:08 PM Well I am gonna say the fact that it is "roleplay" it should not matter the persons gender if they want to play the role of a man or a woman vica versa then there shouldnt be anything anyone can say or do. It is not hurting anyone and they are acting out in character so tell me whats so wrong about that? |
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Rima
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/4/2003 1:15:12 AM For once I agree with Bewlock on some points. The past few days have caused some self examination as well as great thought. I have known Beast and angel for a time, and I did not know the truth. Does it hurt me? No, because I knew Beast as his Gorean role and saw his honorable, strong and guiding nature...That was all I needed to know. I may be more open minded than most, I would have no problem with knowing Beast was female, but how well liked would he have been with (roleplaying a man)in his ID? How many would have taken the time to know him as this character....would he have been welcomed to your Gorean home? I hope so...he would have been in mine. Rima Daki Panther of the Laurius ...Hunters of Gor |
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Zehava
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/4/2003 1:22:31 AM Tal Bewlock, This first response is directed to Yourself and the others who said that "no one was dieceved". When I was courting Brat...Beast adpoted her as "HIS" duaghter, and in so doing,became a part of MY roleplay. This whole thing just blows my mind, for I had not ONE clue. Thus...yes, some were decieved. Now that being said...Beast...we talked many times both in vp and in msn. I shared thoughts and feelings with you that not many people know. And i still would have done that had I known what is now appearant. However, it does hurt me to now know that the person i trusted my feelings to was never honest with me. I know you will see this as I know you read the boards often. Contact me please. |
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B.r.a.t..
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/4/2003 8:20:42 AM Z get a hold of me asap please...*hugs* |